Curse

upier · Mar 19, 2008, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

If you have problems staying alive in PvE, then by all means, use a minor rune. HP is overrated and is mainly used, in PvE, by people who like to ctrl-click their health bar and boast about it.

That's pretty much the same thing as saying that sup runes are mostly used by the people who think that in an 8-man party - it's all about them, them, THEM!
While that can certainly be true in h/h parties - that becomes a much bigger issue when playing with people.

Like I said - lower health means a bigger risk. For the player and the party.
Like also stated - that can be negated much easier in PvE.
And based on that - using minor runes is a much better rule to follow then advertising the use of superior runes.

DarkSpirit · Mar 19, 2008, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

That's pretty much the same thing as saying that sup runes are mostly used by the people who think that in an 8-man party - it's all about them, them, THEM!
While that can certainly be true in h/h parties - that becomes a much bigger issue when playing with people.

Like I said - lower health means a bigger risk. For the player and the party.
Like also stated - that can be negated much easier in PvE.
And based on that - using minor runes is a much better rule to follow then advertising the use of superior runes.

There is no hard and fast rule, it depends on the build and situation and play style. A level 14 SoI would only get me a level 19 summon versus a level 21 summon.

Even in party situations, I am usually the last one to die when playing my mesmer and the one who res the whole team during a wipe. It is even EASIER to kite when in a human party than with H/H because H/H either stop attacking and follow you around whenever you kite or you have to flag them somewhere and they dont move around much then get killed by AoE.

In a human party I dont have to worry about all that and I just kite whenever or however I want. Many newbie mesmers do not know how to make use of the terrain and cast behind obstacles. If I am with H/H, I can't easily do that but when I am with a human party, I have total freedom of movement.

Since I know how to place my mesmer during a battle, I dont need the crutch, I can better make use of more powerful spells.

Lishy · Mar 19, 2008, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Mesmers are very good to have when near-wiped.
Fast casting+Rebirth+Ether signet=ftw
They are good medics for rezing :P
But that is not their main goal..

Boogz · Mar 19, 2008, 09:04 PM // 21:04

As fore me ,I'd take the mesmer for sure, even if they are weak on PvE, they're the only profession who can bring hex removal, enchantment removal, interrupts, armor-ignoring damage, spike assist, hexes and use a hard ress in battle whithout worrying too much.I never go anywhere in PvE whithout one mesmer, at least a henchman one.

Dodo The Extinct · Mar 19, 2008, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

I thought we went over how abusing PvE skills is not a viable build

How?

12xchars

upier · Mar 19, 2008, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Many newbie mesmers do not know how to make use of the terrain and cast behind obstacles.

And that's exactly what I mean.
+ HP will give the player and the TEAM a buffer.
It's not needed in PvE but it is highly welcome. And it's even MORE welcome when one isn't actually giving up much. That +2 in attribute line is most certainly NOT something that would change the tide of a battle. And especially not on a mesmer where the skills are pretty much as effective at lower levels as they are at high ones!
And on top of that - the team is getting a much more durable character. So when it comes to whom I would love in my party - it's a clear decision that I would LOVE a player that IS godly playing a durable character. You on the other hand seem to presume that one excludes the other. Or that one is a replacement for the other.

Having used to play with 2 superior runes and looking at how the game has changed into this damage-fest where you have foes spamming 100+ damage attacks AND those lovely bosses hitting for 400+ damage with ONE shot - the loss of 75 hp is most definitely not worth what one is getting for it.
LUCKILY I have my own instance and I can enforce this opinion on everyone playing in it!

DarkSpirit · Mar 19, 2008, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And that's exactly what I mean.
+ HP will give the player and the TEAM a buffer.

Yeah but I am not calling myself a newbie mesmer.

Anyway, if any mesmer needs the extra hp, go for it. I need a higher summon more though.

Quote:

It's not needed in PvE but it is highly welcome. And it's even MORE welcome when one isn't actually giving up much. That +2 in attribute line is most certainly NOT something that would change the tide of a battle. And especially not on a mesmer where the skills are pretty much as effective at lower levels as they are at high ones!
And on top of that - the team is getting a much more durable character. So when it comes to whom I would love in my party - it's a clear decision that I would LOVE a player that IS godly playing a durable character. You on the other hand seem to presume that one excludes the other. Or that one is a replacement for the other.

It just depends on the build and the individual mesmers. If I will surely fail PvE while carrying a superior rune then why didn't that happen to me? And I completed Prophecies and Factions even before heroes were invented. Anyway HP is overrated, armor is more useful for general PvE. A mere 75hp doesn't last long in HM anyway.

The challenge in PvE is to complete the quests/missions in the shortest amount of time with as little casualties as possible. Having played through all campaigns with all classes, sometimes a good offense is the best defense. Just ask any good nuker, if the monsters can die so fast that they didnt have time to mount much of an attack (this is PvE afterall), that, is also a good form of defense.

upier · Mar 20, 2008, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Yeah but I am not calling myself a newbie mesmer.

Anyway, if any mesmer needs the extra hp, go for it. I need a higher summon more though.

It just depends on the build and the individual mesmers. If I will surely fail PvE while carrying a superior rune then why didn't that happen to me? And I completed Prophecies and Factions even before heroes were invented. Anyway HP is overrated, armor is more useful for general PvE. A mere 75hp doesn't last long in HM anyway.

The challenge in PvE is to complete the quests/missions in the shortest amount of time with as little casualties as possible. Having played through all campaigns with all classes, sometimes a good offense is the best defense. Just ask any good nuker, if the monsters can die so fast that they didnt have time to mount much of an attack (this is PvE afterall), that, is also a good form of defense.

You won't "surely fail" with running a sup rune. Like I said - I used to run two sups and energy armour and did just fine.
The only difference shows when something goes wrong. And that's why I prefer high HP (and armour). When things work as they should - that +2 won't influence the battle so immensely that it would be a MUST to bring it. It will be a bonus - but I have never been in a battle where it would completely and utterly depend on just myself to do that +2 attribute damage to win.
But like I said - if things go wrong - it's a free added bonus. And that's why I like it. My skills aren't relatively worse - I just get some bonuses from it.

It's not like I need the bonus often - BUT if it happens just ONCE - it's good enough. Having completed the games with no sup runes also - I can say that I don't NEED a sup rune to make things work. And that's a clear sign for me not to use them.

DarkSpirit · Mar 20, 2008, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

You won't "surely fail" with running a sup rune. Like I said - I used to run two sups and energy armour and did just fine.
The only difference shows when something goes wrong. And that's why I prefer high HP (and armour). When things work as they should - that +2 won't influence the battle so immensely that it would be a MUST to bring it. It will be a bonus - but I have never been in a battle where it would completely and utterly depend on just myself to do that +2 attribute damage to win.
But like I said - if things go wrong - it's a free added bonus. And that's why I like it. My skills aren't relatively worse - I just get some bonuses from it.

It's not like I need the bonus often - BUT if it happens just ONCE - it's good enough. Having completed the games with no sup runes also - I can say that I don't NEED a sup rune to make things work. And that's a clear sign for me not to use them.

It depends on your build and your playing style. Remember that in a SOI build the +2 attribute also helps you to boost the spells of your secondary professions, as well as your mesmer spells and PvE spells.

One can also argue that having a higher attribute also gives a higher level of defense when using defensive skills to your entire party, which is not exactly a bad thing either while the 75hp only benefits yourself. And how many hits does that 75hp buy for you in HM with the lower armor of mesmers? 1 hit the most? Half or a quarter hit? And if you have DP, it would be even less than 75hp difference.

PvE is also very much affected by proper aggro and pulling. There are also ways to kite to trick the AI to stop chasing you and focus on your tank instead. If you learn those skills well, the 75hp would not be a big impact at all and your +2 attribute on offensive or defensive skills helps the party accomplish their mission faster and safer whichever way you look at it.

upier · Mar 20, 2008, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

One can also argue that having a higher attribute also gives a higher level of defense when using defensive skills to your entire party, which is not exactly a bad thing either while the 75hp only benefits yourself.

PvE is also very much affected by proper aggro and pulling. There are also ways to kite to trick the AI to stop chasing you and focus on your tank instead. If you learn those skills well, the 75hp would not be a big impact at all and your +2 attribute on offensive or defensive skills helps the party accomplish their mission faster and safer whichever way you look at it.

So you are suggesting that in a party which is using only minors (as is the case with your heroes, or other people for that matter) or no runes at all (heroes and hench) with ONLY YOU using sup runes - that your +2 will make the mission run faster and safer?
Did I miss the insta-kill button that appears when you reach 16 in a selected attribute?

So if one is doing enough damage without the sup runes - why waste the HP which might come in handy if things go bad?

And I am not saying that +75 hp is all it takes in PvE. Aggro, choosing opponents, kitting, luring, additional armour, good builds, ... - if you play better an investment in attribute lines which does not demand sup runes is enough. So why waste HP on something that is nice (don't get me wrong) - but not really needed?

The ONLY reason (that I can imagine) why you cling onto sup runes so heavily is because without a sup rune - a SoI build doesn't have that bit of an edge over any person who just farms the max title.

Am I saying you should dump the sup runes?
No. All I am saying is that your desire to run sup runes in normal PvE strikes me as the sup-par thing to do. And while that can be bypassed easily - it still is the sub-par thing to do. The same thing as with mesmers. They can do pretty much what we want them to do - but that doesn't change the fact that there are better options.
But of course that pretty much only matters in the theoretical discussions spawned by boredom on these forums.

DarkSpirit · Mar 20, 2008, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So you are suggesting that in a party which is using only minors (as is the case with your heroes, or other people for that matter) or no runes at all (heroes and hench) with ONLY YOU using sup runes - that your +2 will make the mission run faster and safer?

What makes you so sure that PUGs will only use minor runes?

Quote:

So if one is doing enough damage without the sup runes - why waste the HP which might come in handy if things go bad?

You are not doing as much damage as you can. Why waste the damage which might come in handy if things go right? (which is 99% of the time for me in PvE)

Quote:

And I am not saying that +75 hp is all it takes in PvE. Aggro, choosing opponents, kitting, luring, additional armour, good builds, ... - if you play better an investment in attribute lines which does not demand sup runes is enough. So why waste HP on something that is nice (don't get me wrong) - but not really needed?

Precisely, why waste extra damage on something that is not really needed 99% of the time? +2 gives better heals/protect, not to mention higher damage, more energy (for energy management skills), etc.

Quote:

The ONLY reason (that I can imagine) why you cling onto sup runes so heavily is because without a sup rune - a SoI build doesn't have that bit of an edge over any person who just farms the max title.

So all the more to use sup rune in a SoI build.

I have been saying it depends on your build and playstyle for many times now.

Quote:

Am I saying you should dump the sup runes?
No. All I am saying is that your desire to run sup runes in normal PvE strikes me as the sup-par thing to do. And while that can be bypassed easily - it still is the sub-par thing to do. The same thing as with mesmers. They can do pretty much what we want them to do - but that doesn't change the fact that there are better options.
But of course that pretty much only matters in the theoretical discussions spawned by boredom on these forums.

I am saying it depends on the situation but you keep insisting that minor runes are ALWAYS better. That is the difference.

PvE monster AI is quite predictable and if my team knows how to hold an aggro, I dont see how having more damage is a bad thing and I have been in team where we breeze through missions without a single death.

upier · Mar 20, 2008, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

What makes you so sure that PUGs will only use minor runes?

Because more and more people are using them? The same thing with survivor insignia?
Checked the prices lately for those things? People are starting to see that having a bit more HP is nice. Also how many people here have taken your side in this matter?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

You are not doing as much damage as you can. Why waste the damage which might come in handy if things go right? (which is 99% of the time for me in PvE)

Precisely, why waste extra damage on something that is not really needed 99% of the time? +2 gives better heals/protect, not to mention higher damage, more energy (for energy management skills), etc.

Like I've said - because in those 99% when you aren't needing the extra HP - you also aren't needing the +2 because you should be doing more then enough damage without the +2. And in that 1% when things do go wrong - the +2 damage is also not doing you any good. But the +75 is useful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I am saying it depends on the situation but you keep insisting that minor runes are ALWAYS better. That is the difference.

The problem is that you haven't given us a situation where the +2 would be so relevant that we should bypass the general rule. The + HP is much more useful when things go bad. So where is the +2 of such importance that it would be worth expanding the general rule that minors are better? Because if you have 595 Hp and get hit for 600 you die. What foes on the other hand couldn't we kill with 14 instead of 16?

DarkSpirit · Mar 20, 2008, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Because more and more people are using them? The same thing with survivor insignia?
Checked the prices lately for those things? People are starting to see that having a bit more HP is nice. Also how many people here have taken your side in this matter?

Mesmer runes has always been cheap and most people need minor runes more because they have more minor runes than superior on their body (unless they are building a 55 mesmer which is another story).

Quote:

Like I've said - because in those 99% when you aren't needing the extra HP - you also aren't needing the +2 because you should be doing more then enough damage without the +2. And in that 1% when things do go wrong - the +2 damage is also not doing you any good. But the +75 is useful.

Except whenever I cast a spell with SoI, I AM using the +2, which is very often.

Quote:

The problem is that you haven't given us a situation where the +2 would be so relevant that we should bypass the general rule. The + HP is much more useful when things go bad. So where is the +2 of such importance that it would be worth expanding the general rule that minors are better? Because if you have 595 Hp and get hit for 600 you die. What foes on the other hand couldn't we kill with 14 instead of 16?

Yes and when things go bad it is 1% of the time. When things go good it is 99%. Which situation makes more sense for me to cater for?

If you get a team wipe in PvP you lose the whole match but in PvE your team res in a shrine and have probably killed half the mob already so you can kill the other half now, big deal. Furthermore 75hp isn't buying you much in HM. If you very rarely die in PvE, even with 1 superior rune, why is minor still better? When it may be that I could spawn 4 level 21 summons (instead of level 19) that have kept me from dying more often all this time.

kainmodious · Mar 25, 2008, 10:37 AM // 10:37

I want to thank you all who actually posted on topic and helped me pick what class to play

I never asked for a "who is a better interupter/comparison between mesmers and all other classes" type of thread. i just wanted to know what might be more fun/challenging to play a rit or mes, and a few reasons why.

but instead everyone (besides a few people) decided to turn my simple question into somewhat of a pissing contest.

if i want an all out shouting match i now know to post here if i have a simple question ill ask sowhere else for now on

Again thank you all who posted on topic

and whoever has the power please close this thread

Kyomi Tachibana · Mar 25, 2008, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by kainmodious

I want to thank you all who actually posted on topic and helped me pick what class to play

I never asked for a "who is a better interupter/comparison between mesmers and all other classes" type of thread. i just wanted to know what might be more fun/challenging to play a rit or mes, and a few reasons why.

but instead everyone (besides a few people) decided to turn my simple question into somewhat of a pissing contest.

if i want an all out shouting match i now know to post here if i have a simple question ill ask sowhere else for now on

Again thank you all who posted on topic

and whoever has the power please close this thread

Well, this is what you get when you ask a question about which class would be better. As for Mes or Rit, it really depends on your plastyle, I found rits to be effective but horridly boring, a mesmer requires a more active playstyle, watching the field, disrupting who you need to, etc.

Coloneh · Mar 25, 2008, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by kainmodious

I want to thank you all who actually posted on topic and helped me pick what class to play

I never asked for a "who is a better interupter/comparison between mesmers and all other classes" type of thread. i just wanted to know what might be more fun/challenging to play a rit or mes, and a few reasons why.

but instead everyone (besides a few people) decided to turn my simple question into somewhat of a pissing contest.

if i want an all out shouting match i now know to post here if i have a simple question ill ask sowhere else for now on

Again thank you all who posted on topic

and whoever has the power please close this thread

your question was andwered in the first few posts and then there was a discussion about mesmer's effectiveness. if you werent interested no one was making you read it.

Cuilan · Mar 28, 2008, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by kainmodious

and whoever has the power please close this thread

Use the report button.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

rit is the viable one. mesmers have a useless primary attribute

And Rits have a useful primary attribute? Mesmers wouldn't be as good as they are without the speedy casting. Hope you're not one of those 'kick the ____' players, as I'd kick someone for saying mesmers are worthless in PvE.

Tyla · Mar 28, 2008, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

And Rits have a useful primary attribute? Mesmers wouldn't be as good as they are without the speedy casting. Hope you're not one of those 'kick the ____' players, as I'd kick someone for saying mesmers are worthless in PvE.

Rits can use Splinter Weapon and Ancestors' Rage.
They also have strong unremovable buffs. Weapon of Warding and Weapon of Shadow.

A Mesmer can do it...apart from AR, which isn't a spell.

will knights · Mar 28, 2008, 06:14 PM // 18:14

new to game cant decide what to piic

Coloneh · Mar 28, 2008, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by will knights

new to game cant decide what to piic

not mesmer.... obviously